Caroline Blair:
Welcome to the third episode of Powering Conversations, where we'll explore the remarkable transformation of the UK's transmission system. I'm Caroline Blair and today I'm joined by Laura Campbell, head of strategic projects at SP Energy Networks; Laura Fleming, country managing director at Hitachi Energy UK and Ireland; and Professor Keith Bell, professor of Future Power Systems at Strathclyde University.
As we embark on the journey towards net zero, this episode will reveal the crucial role transformation plays in connecting renewable energy sources to the grid and distributing power across the nation, reaching homes and businesses alike.
We'll dive into the significant infrastructure changes on the horizon, transmission's pivotal role in shaping the network of the future, and the benefits this transformation brings to individual consumers and communities. Plus, we'll discuss the exciting opportunities for skill development in the UK's energy sector. Laura, Laura and Keith, it's great to have you all here today! And, I suppose the best starting point tends to be with you telling us a bit about you and how you fit into the context of today's episode.
So, Laura, if we can start with yourself?
Laura Campbell:
Yeah, sure no problem. It's great to be here today with such great colleagues. So, I'm, as you mentioned, the head of Strategic Projects within SP Energy Networks. So, I lead a team, it’s a fairly new team, so we've been going for about 18 months, but responsible for delivering all the much-needed transmission infrastructure, onshore transmission infrastructure, needed as we drive to net zero and getting more clean power generated onto the network.
Caroline Blair:
So, no small task!
Laura Campbell:
Yeah. So we've got a huge portfolio of projects. So new overhead lines at 400 kV. We've got, I think over 12 new 400 kV substations. So overall about 3 billion pounds worth of investment to deliver over the next 5 to 10 years.
Caroline Blair:
So, a big investment. But you've also got quite a tight time target.
Laura Campbell:
Yeah definitely.
Caroline Blair:
Laura, yourself, where do you fit into this landscape?
Laura Fleming:
So as Hitachi Energy, we are delivering the technology, the solutions and the software that will help SP Energy Networks deliver on their ambitions. So, what Hitachi Energy does is deliver equipment, for example, that goes into substations. That will help to build the grid, but also the software that will help to manage that grid and the flows in the grid, as we move forward and towards the future.
So, I have a team. I’m responsible for the operations of Hitachi Energy in the UK and Ireland. So, we have four businesses around grid integration, grid automation, and also high voltage transformer products. My role really, as a country managing director, is to bring all of those four different business streams together and work collaboratively, with our customers, but also with our wider stakeholders, to really realise the ambitions that we have, not just until 2030, but, also beyond.
Caroline Blair:
So, Laura you deliver, you produce, you provide. And Laura, you bring in the hardware and the software in order to allow you to do that.
Laura Fleming:
That's right.
Caroline Blair:
And then, Keith, in your capacity, how do you fit into this landscape?
Keith Bell:
Well, some might say as an academic, all I do is talk about stuff. But…
Caroline Blaire:
Well, you've picked the right forum!
Keith Bell:
Well, yeah. Yeah. Hopefully. Hopefully. So I mean, I've been at the University of Strathclyde for sort of nearly 20 years, but before that I was in the industry myself, used to be a transmission network planner with a well-known network company down south. But, I've been, I've held the ScottishPower chair in future power systems for a while, since 2013. So, it's got kind of two strands to it really. One is as an educator at the university, but also as a, as a researcher, so helping to all with my group helping to develop some of the techniques that might be used in some of the software that Laura was mentioning, some of the kind of methods to help with the planning and the design of the network that, that Laura was talking about. But I mean, also just kind of helping with the workforce, I suppose, as an educator. So, a lot of our graduates, go through and, yeah, get jobs with different bits of Scottish power, but in particular SP Energy Networks.
Caroline Blair:
So, where we're going is very much built upon the foundations of research from contributors like yourself. And then, of course, you're also providing the next generation of, of talent in order to, to achieve it and to contribute towards that change.
So, we are here today to talk about this huge transformation in the transmission network. But to start at the top, then let's begin with the simplest question and the hardest question in so many ways. What exactly, Laura, do we mean by transmission?
Laura Campbell:
So I think we can think of as, you know, the super power highway that really takes power from where it's generated, via the power lines, the lattice towers, you see underground cables to the substations, where we transform it down to lower voltages and then distribute it out to the, to the homes where it's consumed. So, it's really taking the power where it's generated, getting it moving around the country to where it really needs to be consumed.
And within SP transmission, our license area, we operate across central and southern Scotland, and we’re a kind of key part of the transmission system, being in that kind of middle space and also the power flows across from Scotland into England. On our network we have around 166 high voltage substations and over 4000km of networks that we own and operate across our transmission system.
Caroline Blair:
All are quite significant. That feels like quite a number.
Laura Campbell:
Yeah. It is. I like to say it's all for the bargain price, so for the consumer around £0.11 per day we are keeping the lights on and the power going and keeping all this operational. So, it’s something that we’re really proud of here at SP Energy Networks.
Caroline Blair:
So, Keith, this, this question I suppose, there's a place for everyone actually to contribute to this one. But I'll start with yourself. In episode one we touched on transmission as we spoke about this once in a generation transformation, that the energy industry is undergoing, which I just think is a really brilliant description that really highlights the scale of the operation. So, on that, how would you describe the scale of the challenge ahead and why, I suppose, is transmission so crucial to this transformation?
Keith Bell:
So, the core of the transformation is of course reducing our dependency on fossil fuels, certainly on, unabated fossil fuels, meaning to say we burn them, we don't capture the CO2. So that's, that's obviously the fundamental driver for what we're doing to try and… OK we're not going to be able to turn the clock back, particularly on climate change is already some of that, a lot of that built in. But to not make it too much worse. So, it's, you know, it's a global imperative. And clearly in the UK we've got to do our bit, towards that.
So, to be able to reduce emissions from the production of electricity, but also to transform our and use of energy. So, you know, heating in homes and know fossil fuels in vehicles. So, we've got these two phases really of, transforming the production of electricity and also transforming the end use. So, there's this kind of mission we've been on, actually, we've gone a long way towards it over the last, sort of 10 or 15 years, where we've been able to build up, use of renewables. We've got to carry on doing that, get the emissions down even further. But at the same time, we're actually going to be growing the whole system as we electrify the end use of energy. So, we've got this sort of we have a big mission going on. And as, as we've just been saying, you know, it's, I mean, perhaps even more than one generation, maybe 2 or 3 generations, of a, you know, a challenge. But the goal is that of kind of clean energy and tradition. Transmission is crucial to that because we're blessed in and around the British Isles of having these great resources for wind energy. But they're kind of remote from the main centres of use. So, we're going to be able to make use of those great resources we have to connect them in through to, to the main cities. And that means transmission. The big thing about transmission is, as we’re always saying, you know, at high voltage the losses are lower. So we can transport that energy across longer distances. And yeah, we've got to build it up. So there's different ways of trying to measure how much. So, you know, how many more kilometres of, you know, subsea cables, for example, which, SP Energy Networks and others, are building, not so many new kilometres of overhead lines, although that that is something that is being done as well and is, of course, attracts quite a lot of controversy, but it is part of part of the picture.
But kind of the average distance, if you like, that we carry each unit of energy. You know, last year, might have been, in terms of the kind of the main transmission network that covers the whole of Britain, might have been about 100km, the average, you know, per megawatt hour, you know, within ten years that needs to go up to about 150.
Caroline Blair:
So, a significant jump.
Keith Bell:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Caroline Blair:
So then bringing yourself and Lauren for your reflections on that. And…
Laura Campbell:
Yeah, I think Keith there's some really great points. And I think we're seeing, you know, as the government publishing the Clean Power 2030 report and their aims to get up to 95% of power generated from clean sources, that there is a real kind of shift change that we need to make.
And I really see the transmission system as being the bottleneck on this. So, we can build all the generation offshore wind, onshore wind. But if there's nowhere to go and it's and getting constrained by our already constrained transmission system, you know, it's kind of pointless. So, we really need to build out our transmission network, get that power flowing, as Keith was saying, to these load centres. And part of that is really, you know, with the publication of our T3 business plan, we are looking to invest 10.6 billion from next year, over the next five years to 2031 in our transmission network, this is three times increase in what we were previously doing in the network.
And we're also looking to double the amount of renewable generation we're connecting into our network. So, we need to deliver three times the amount of investment and also double the amount of generation that can connect to our network, between 2026 and 2031.
Caroline Blair:
That's a really clear example of what we're talking about when we talk about the scale of this transformation.
And it's an interesting perspective then for yourself, Laura, as a facilitator towards, enabling that change what’s your thoughts around it?
Laura Fleming:
Yeah, I know exactly. And as Keith and Laura, I've explained the scale of the change is immense. We cannot, build more renewable energy without the transmission system keeping in lockstep with that.
So those two things go absolutely hand-in-hand together. And that's really what we see happening over the next five years or so. What we will also start to see happening more and more is what Keith is referring to in terms of what, how we will actually start to use energy in a different way. So, electricity is going to be the backbone of society, and that will be the next thing that we are already preparing for. How are we using energy through electricity in a very different way. So, we'll also expect very much that from 2030 onwards, actually our requirement for electricity will also be increasing. So, first of all, we're going to make more electricity because that will limit the use of fossil fuels going forward. But then we'll also start to use more electricity as we're switching over our heating systems the way that we, you know, that we move around, our urban spaces, for example.
Caroline Blair:
So, it's coming in from both. There's pressure coming in, isn't there from both angles, both incoming power, outgoing power and ultimately a change, a wholesale change, which, when we've considered too, even if you took the net zero targets and the ambition for cleaner energy delivery out of the equation in itself, it's already a big change. But altogether, you're providing a really key picture there.
Laura, if we can stay with yourself at this point, then as we turn towards the supply chain and that sort of perspective. So how will this be facilitated then to deliver at the pace and also at the scale, as we've mentioned, to achieve and to reach net zero in line with the government targets? And are there any challenges that you foresee in that, perhaps we can describe as an opportunity?
Laura Fleming:
Yes, that well, there are definitely challenges and opportunities, there at the same time. So, the scale of the change that we're seeing right now has not been seen for generations. Let's be clear. What we, have been working with our customers and external stakeholders, and the government, for example, is to create clarity around what is needed. And really, what is it that we're aiming to do here, the why, the why exactly, but also the what really in terms of, you know, what is the target that we're going for and the Clean Power 2030 plan and the action plan that really explains the what, quite clearly is a really, really good example how we have moved from a connect and manage.
So, we manage it at the point when we think we need it to strategically planning and really thinking, okay, what is it that we need to have a decarbonized electricity system by 2030? These are the things that we need to do so that we can then start planning for that. What that does is a number of different things. It allows companies like, Hitachi Energy to, to plan and invest in terms of what it is that Scottish Power Energy Networks needs in order to build.
One of the things that we are doing is working much more in collaboration with each other to understand, okay, what is it that Scottish Power Energy Networks needs to build the substations? And how as Hitachi Energy can we play into that? And so for example, a few weeks ago, we signed a very nice memorandum of understanding where we will be working together on the new generation of high voltage equipment that will enable, a very sustainable way to build our substations of the future.
So that's the first thing. The second thing is, skills and people. So as we're building towards, this increase and this really massive opportunity that we have, it’s going to be really important that we have more and more people entering into the industry, working with ourselves, working with Laura, working with Keith, to do, all this amazing work that needs to be done right through from engineering, to site management, to construction, to legal and financial inputs, all over the entire value chain there.
That means that many people to transition from other industries into this industry and what we also need is to encourage, and provide opportunities for students, and graduates and apprentices also to come in and learn now how to work in our industry, because what's really clear is that this is not just going to be a thing that's going to last until 2030, this is going to last well beyond 2030.
So, and this is the opportunity really, this is really going to provide long term, really, really good careers for many people, of Scotland and around the UK, to make meaningful and lasting change. So, I would say this is absolutely the industry to be in right now.
Caroline Blair:
Well, this seems like an opportune time then to bring you again back into that conversation then, Keith. And given the scale of the investment, as we've spoken about and the opportunities there for, you know, from an economic and an upskilling perspective, this is very much your remit and your area in terms of attracting people to the sector now feels like it might be quite a good time and an exciting time to enter into it.
Keith Bell:
More than that, it’s a brilliant time. I mean not just now. It has been, I think, for quite a while. But it's true that, you know, for a long time, you know, we take electrical energy for granted. And, you know, the lights have stayed on through, you know, a large part, the kind of the learning and the experience and the kind of good practice that has been developed over decades in the sector.
But we are going through this big change. So, the kinds of technologies that we're using are different. Of course, we're getting the energy from different sources from how we did it in the past as well as we were just saying, you know, the whole system is growing. So, there's massive opportunities. And Laura made a great point about 2030 is not the end game here is just a staging post. So, I think clean power by 2030 as a government objective, I think it's useful in terms of concentrating minds and saying, we've got to get on with delivering stuff here. So, it kind of puts a focus on us to stop talking and start doing, but that doing carries on.
So, in terms of a kind of a career destination is fantastic because the need is there thereafter as well. And, you know, so I would say to anybody who's got, you know, friends or colleagues or themselves, family looking at, you know, what sort of sector to go into. This as you know, it's interesting, you know, it’s got some intellectual challenge to it.
And it's also got these kind of, you know, a possibility of really making a difference, delivering something that is going to be useful to society, not just in this country, but as part of this kind of global effort that we need to go through.
Caroline Blair:
I'm drawing some real parallels here. And forgive me if this is a sidestep that goes out with the remit of where our minds are at, but with the tech industry. So at the time where there was a real upsurge and change and real transformation for how we use technology and the modernisation of it, there was a real interest in a drive for people, particularly for young people to work in the tech sector and move into that area, and I'm getting similar sort of themes here that this could be a potentially very viable career, opportunity for, for young people or for people looking to change their careers.
Laura Campbell:
Yeah. I think it's a really a really interesting point because, yeah, we need we need the skills, we need the engineers, we need project managers, construction. But we also need the skills from the likes of the tech industry.
So we need to look at how do we harness our data? How can we use things like AI? How can we use technology to try and help enable us to do this, you know, level of investment at pace and be more efficient and effective and what we're trying to do. So there's a whole other thing where we need to look at what are the other skills that we need to bring into our industry that are new, in enabling this transition. So talking about what you were saying Laura, like, you know, the digital technologies and the smart grids and, you know, how do we manage things, like more automation? It's a really big in area of transition. We need to bring in as well.
Laura Fleming:
And maybe just linked to your reference to the tech industry as well. You know, if we look at how the tech industry has evolved over the last 15, 20 years, we wouldn't have predicted that we would be where we are right now. And I can really foresee the same thing will happen in this industry when we are at the moment looking at how we're connecting the generations through the transmission to the homes. In the future, homes will also be producing energy because we'll be having solar panels and will have batteries, and we have our, electric cars.
So actually the whole entire system, I believe, in 15 years will look completely different to what it looks like now. And to me, that is the really, really exciting opportunity for people to really come in and bring their new ideas and bring their innovation and, and create transformation, far beyond what the three of us around the table here, are seeing right now to me that is the real opportunity.
Caroline Blair:
Meaningful transformation as well and when we talk about the infrastructure perspective and the impact on the energy user, as you said, there, I suppose, Laura, how do you see the investment and the huge changes that we're talking about with regard to our transmission network impacting individuals and communities?
Because with this excitement and with this change and with this transformation comes that very word, change. And that does require a bit of a mindset shift, perhaps.
Laura Campbell:
Yeah, I think looking at the scale of what we need to do, these are huge construction projects that are going to be impacting local communities. And it's really vital that we work with them at the very early stages and we bring them along on the journey on what we're trying to do, explaining the needs and the kind of greater need of why we're doing the projects. Trying to get to clean power and net zero for 2050, the kind of longer term goal, and something we do is we get out in our communities very early on in the planning phases.
So we host in-person events. We explain the project needs. We have our teams go out into the communities. We have online events as well. So, we're making sure we try to reach as many people, as possible. We get their views and we take them on board and we're trying to listen and put it into our designs as we're going through the consenting and in the planning phases.
But it just doesn't stop there. Because then when we go into construction, we do have a community liaison teams on the ground working with, the local stakeholders, the community groups to explain, you know, what the impacts are going to be around construction traffic, trying to minimize it, make sure it's very clear we're listening and communicating in and every step of the process.
Caroline Blair:
And it might be, an impact, mightn’t it. And so, what could that look like with it as a small town, say as an example? What could that look like? Because it's really reassuring to hear that that footprint is there from yourselves before, during and after the delivery and the construction. But what might that look like?
Laura Campbell:
So, when we're doing a lot of the heavy construction, there's going to be, you know, a lot of like heavy goods vehicles, there could be, you know, ten a day that are moving large quantities of ground and earthworks. So, we look at the, the traffic management and this goes into our plans and how we can minimize impacts. Or if there's maybe a local school in the area. So we'll try and divert traffic away from that area, or certainly not when the school you know, the key timings in the mornings and in the afternoon, the schools are going in and out.
But ultimately we try to look at how we can minimise all of these impacts, working with the local community and looking at, the surrounding areas. So how can we kind of route the traffic and make sure it's, it's minimized. But it's a, it's a complicated, complex puzzle that we need to make sure we're engaging with, everyone and, taking their views on board.
I guess one of the things, we’re actually really pleased with is the government announcement on the Community Benefit fund. So, the guidance was published in, like the last month and there's going to be some real, investment there that communities will be able to apply for, that are impacted by the construction projects. So we're still working through the guidance and how we're going to kind of manage that, I guess an example, is on our eastern green link one project, which is a subsea link that goes from the east coast of Scotland down to England. There's a community benefit fund there of 8 million pounds that the communities can apply for and invest and in, getting a real tangible benefit. So we're really excited about seeing how this kind of works with the local community. Yeah, there’s a big pot of money there that can be put to good use for communities.
Caroline Blair:
And it's so important, isn't it, because it is inevitable. And the benefits for us all individually, as individual homeowners or as individual businesses, small businesses, large scale businesses, communities, the benefits are going to be in describable. But with anything, there comes the odds. The odds are a bump in the road. But that's really reassuring to see that there's investment, both from the government and from SPEN, in that sense, to be able to minimise the impact, but to also ensure delivery so that we can all benefit from that too.
I suppose, to start to begin to close this conversation off at this point, if you were to name one thing, then that you're excited about in this transmission transformation, starting with yourself Laura. But brace yourself, Keith and Laura, because this too will be coming to you. What would you say is most exciting for you?
Laura Fleming:
I would say the most exciting thing for me is really the opportunity to build a sustainable, flexible, but also secure energy future for the UK. Because the one thing we haven't really touched on is actually what all of this is leading to. It means that we're not going to be dependent on fossil fuels anymore. It means we're going to be less dependent on, other countries around the world, for our energy. But it also means that, communities and people and businesses, will all have access to all of the energy that they need to either run their lives, to study, to work, to run their business, their manufacturing plant or whatever it is, in the country. And I don't think often enough we really stop and think and realise how important that actually is if we don't have energy, and this is going to mean if we don't have electricity in the future, actually, we can't run our lives and we can't run our businesses. How can children go to school and learn?
And it's really important that we reconnect and understand where actually all of this is coming from. What we're going to be really doing over the next few years is we're going to make sure that we generate it in the country. And that is a really important point to continue, also speaking to, the communities about that are going to be impacted, by some of the works that will be going on. But this is a good thing, and is going to be delivering, jobs and opportunities, for so many. So yeah, that's really the thing that really excites me.
Caroline Blair:
The energy equivalent of local produce or made in the UK.
Laura Fleming:
Absolutely
Caroline Blair:
Onto yourself, then Keith, and the same question to you, the one thing that you're excited about in this transmission transformation.
Keith Bell:
I'll just say all that was just mentioned too really.
I mean, you’ve just taken all the things I was going to say, but, but it's absolutely right, you know, and I think, well, maybe being a bit inclined to forget, you know, what the destination is here and why we're going there and we touched on it earlier, you know, there's the why and the what.
So yeah it is, making sure that the planet and our part of it is safe for our children and our grandchildren, but it also brings short term benefits and the economic opportunities. And we just talked about the cost of the transition towards net zero and meeting the carbon budgets that come in the meantime. But I think it's better to think of it as an investment. So it unlocks access to cleaner energy, that's also, in respect of reducing our dependency on fossil fuels, and in particular, you know, we are dependent on imports of fossil fuels, that kind of vulnerability to whatever global price shocks there might be. So, we can have, not just kind of secure, reliable supplies, but security in terms of what it's going to cost us.
Caroline Blair:
Greater control
Keith Bell:
A greater control over it - absolutely. And sure. You know, the wind varies. And the sun is shining all hours of the day. But we have got the ability to design the system such that we can deliver that reliable, clean supply of energy. And by the way, you know, when we kind of transform or the end uses of energy in terms of, you know, heating and, you know, cars, electric cars, these are more efficient uses of energy than using fossil fuels. So, we have that kind of efficiency benefit. And because of the low cost, relatively low cost of producing electricity via renewables, then, yeah, we have that, you know, a greater efficiency and we don't have to buy as much energy, therefore. And any energy we buy is cheaper. Yes, there is an investment cost to get the networks right to build all the new generation capacity.
And yes, it does have these impacts during the construction phase in particular. But this is you know, it pays back. It's worthwhile. You know, there is this, this goal to achieve. So, it's the one thing that makes me excited is getting to that goal. And, you know, the realisation we've got there, we've done it. You know.
Caroline Blair:
Laura, for yourself?
Laura Campbell:
I know, how do I top this? No, for me, something that I'm really, really excited about, is you know, we spoke about that can a real meaningful change in being able to drive that and really working with the people that are passionate about fighting the climate crisis and how we can all kind of work together and, and collaborate because I think, you know, as an industry, we all need to come together and we need to do it together to really get there, you know, to get to net zero in 2050, we can't just kind of do it in pockets of isolation. So, it's really about, you know, the wider industry how do we come together, how do we grow a green talent. How do we get the solutions all together to make this happen? Which is something I'm, I'm really excited about. And also the great projects that we have, the scale of this, investment in the projects is really exciting, and working through those challenges with a really great team.
Caroline Blair:
Professionally exciting as well. And yeah, a real theme that's shone through a lot in this episode feels to be around collaboration, whether that's talking about with the next generation of talent that's coming through, collaboration between yourself and SP Energy Networks and Hitachi as well. So, it's really interesting that is coming through.
We have covered the net zero aspect there. So just staying with that, we do like to round off these podcasts by throwing this one at you. And I'd like you to imagine that we have reached net zero. How are you feeling?
Keith Bell:
Delighted. Yeah, delighted. And actually, a bit relieved as well because we've got to do something, you know, this is for future generations.
Not just, as we've said already, you know, not just in this country, but in other parts of the world as well. And I think relieved you know, it would kind of show our better nature as humanity. There's a lot of defeatism around at the moment, a lot of negativity, you know, human beings for, you know, as long as we've been on this planet, have been creative, an ability to imagine our way into the future and imagine a future that can be better.
There's always this tension between the kind of people who say, oh, it's far too difficult, or, for those who kind of kind of be optimistic. And I think we've got good reason to be optimistic about all of this, because the technologies do exist. The kind of the benefits are very clear. I think we have to be make sure we communicate them, communicate them clearly as well.
And if we do get there, it will mean that that kind of positive outlook, that optimism has won out over the kind of the negativity that we're seeing at the moment. So, we've just got to like, you know, kind of keep the faith and keep going.
Caroline Blair:
Oh, that was a good that was a good first answer. What about yourself Laura? What are your thoughts around that? We’ve achieved Net Zero. How are you feeling in that moment?
Laura Fleming:
Yeah, I would actually say I would feel grateful. And I think I would also say it would be ‘when’ and not ‘if’ we get there. Because I don't think we have a choice. We have to get there. I think it's a matter of time when we get there.
And maybe also to comment on, you know, the collaboration aspect. No one can do this alone. We can only get there by collaboration. We all need to be behind it. For all of those reasons that we stated our earlier - independence, security, and access to clean, renewable and affordable energy. And without that, the world can't really go on because the effects of climate change will continue to increase on all of us.
So eventually, we will all come together and we will all collaborate. So, yeah, for me, it is really, not an if but a when we reach net zero. And then I will be extremely grateful that as, you know, as species, we have done it again.
Caroline Blair:
Great statement of intention. And then there for the final word to you then, Laura, your thoughts on achieving net zero.
Laura Campbell:
For me, I think there would be a great sense of pride and achievement. You know, as a collective, you know, we have made this happen. And, you know, leaving that kind of lasting legacy for future generations. You know, I think about my nephews, and really like something, I think leaving it, you know, the world in a better place.
And I've played a part and collectively, you know, as a society, as humankind, we've played our part to, to make it happen. And I think it would be a real sense of achievement and, and real pride in what we've done.
Caroline Blair:
What a great place to round off this episode of Powering Conversations. A huge thank you to Laura Campbell, to Laura Fleming, and of course, to Keith Bell.
The changes on the horizon are clearly both significant and exciting for our transmission system. And for more information about SP energy networks and their T3 business plan, head over to www.spenergynetworks.co.uk and be sure to subscribe to Powering Conversations on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your preferred podcast platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. Until then, we'll see you next time.